Modules: Lead-belaying w/ Gri-gri? B from above w/ hands-free?

[eriklr1]

Can we do a module day, like our Anchors "class," at the CMC wall or set out a time for small groups to work on lead-belaying with a Gri-Gri? I've heard a few different strategies for it, and they all conflict -- Petzl is saying one way, the gym employees are saying a different way, AMGA says one way, longtime users say something else, right-handers have their thing they do and lefties have to figure something out completely different or awkwardly use our right hands. (Do they make a left-handed Gri-Gri that I should have looked harder for one before I bought a right-handed one?)  Also every time I go to the gym, I'm there to climb and I have only one partner so we can't mock lead-belay with a Gri-Gri or have anyone else there to give feedback on it.

Also, speaking of different types of belaying, can we do a similar period of practice or a combined day with a hands-free device (Reverso, BD Guide), or a semi-hands-free device (Cinch, Gri-Gri), or is that part of the Trad Lead Climbing School curriculum?

Thanks.

Josh
720-276-2399

[clems]

Hey Josh,

I can't speak towards the classes, but I do want to say that the gri-gri and cinch (and other auto-brake devices) are not even semi-hands free.  The brake hand is just as much required as with your normal ATC belay device, from above or below.  I can't offer any advice for helping with the belay, as I don't use those type of devices

Also, use of the Reverso 3 and and BD Guide with a hands free belay from above is covered in Trad School in depth.  However I'm sure it'd be possible to go over and practice if you are keen to learn it.

[Mark Nelson]

I don't know that you should have conflicting methods.

Meaning, if you go with the independence of hand movement between the guide and brake hands, that you initially should learn with the atc/tube type device, I find the method in going with a gri-gri or cinch type device should be fairly seamless, but with some minor shifting of your brake hand. Belaying with the tube device being a method where you don't bring your brake strand up to meet your guide hand (the one where you can pinch both strands with your guide hand, leaving you with a bad angle and possibility of fumbling the slide). Keeping your hands independent should always allow you to slide your hand into a good friction angle relating to your belay device.

One thing that I think Petzl introduced was the different brake hand position. I don't favor it. I like the way it was initially instructed by keeping your brake hand in position (using your pinkie as the cam inhibitor) to slide off the cam and back on the rope as it is similar to your hands would move in a tube device method (I'm not talking about palms up or down, FWIW -- that's actually not relevant anyway in total braking strength, it's more a matter of each person's comfort in rope control).


As far as I know, the AMGA has no one way; the guides that are certified teach many ways to do some things in a safe manner. Keith may be able to hit on this point a bit better than me though; but that's my impression anyway.

Every device is supposed to be hands-on unless you close the back end of the system with some type of knot.

What is important I feel no matter what the device or method used is that you can belay with total rope control at all times and be able to provide the braking action.

It would be good to go through each device. I believe there was some discussion on the sport climbing/leading type of instruction. I don't know if that would be a place for it. I have a feeling this will end up being some type of mentoring deal.

[eriklr1]

Do you have pictures or a video for what you're talking about, Mark? A video would work better, because the Petzl poster at the gym is still confusing.

And are there a lot of people out there in the tech section using a Cinch or a Gri-Gri to lead belay? About 2/3 of the people at the gym are using the Gri-Gri, but I haven't seen many tech section climbers this winter.

I posed this post to get some safe practice -- most of my regular climbing partners don't lead at the gym, and when I do belay lead climbers at the gym or outside, I don't want to be experimenting with a device without some backup.

Are there other people that need the same help with the Gri-Gri that we could all maybe work together one day at a gym or at the AMC climbing wall and/or who wants to assist in letting me practice and giving feedback?

Thanks.

Josh
720-276-2399

[tfelix]

I really don't like the locking-assist devices (Cinch and GriGri) for lead-belaying.  They're great for a TR belay or belay from above, but I have yet to learn a system for lead-belaying that I find adequate (i.e., ability to block the brake-assist cam in a "safe" and "releasable" way while also maintaining an adequate brake hand).  I know dozens of people--including the manufacturers--will disagree with me, and they'll show you one of several methods that they each like.  But I prefer to just use the tube-style devices (e.g., ATC) for lead-belaying. Just one guy's opinion.  But the amount of variation in methods and the fact that some of us don't like to use them leads us to where we are: we don't teach this in CMC.  '

Belaying from above is covered extensively in TLCS and somewhat in RSS now.